SEK Excursion Carriages

[jsimantov]

Hi everyone,

Please note that in the last years before WWII, SEK have built a number of hybrid passenger 'coaches' using old 2-axle goods vans. Very little photographic documentation exists, to my knowledge, the only picture I have seen myself is a shot taken during a school outing around 1937 from Serres, showing in addition to my then young aunt, a passenger car very similar to those built in Germany after WWII. The method of building was similar to that used in Germany: the outer wooden case was basically retained, while opening access doors and a number of windows were opened. Obviously, a number of wooden seats were added.

I can't see how I can obtain more information at this point; my aunt is now 94, and honestly I don't think she was much interested in the excursion carriage during that outing!!

I'll post the pic if I manage to find it.

On a parallel issue, 3-axle carriages were commonly used in excursion trains until the early 70s. I am posting a comment in that topic.

Cheers,

Joseph

[christo]

Joseph,
Your memories (and those of your aunt's) are invaluable, especially on how these cars were deployed.

Bothe photos are of Fr. Elliott. showing Excersion carriage behind A308 and behind Ma steam loco.

christo.

[GAZKGK]

So, i was at Kato Magnisia, Thessaloniki in 2012 i searched that luggage van that Andy posted as Italian and christo sais its ex- Ringhoffer Ητ..., 93-20 562-4 (just the same with that one at Rentis).

It's true that the body design is quite simillar to that of the Italian wagons ... BUT:

--> They don't have a PARTICULAR NUMBER SEQUENCE with the same wagons... Their initial, supposed number sequence may be Δπτ 1101-1115 but for example there are simillar carriages with different body.... such as this which is ex- Δπτ 1110.

If they were 1950's Italian, in my opinion, we would definately know a particular number sequence.

--> Although somewhere (i really can't remember where) i had found them noted as built in 1927 / 1929 and rebuilt by Piraeus Works (K.E.P.) and although their chassis reminds the Ητ Ringhoffers, their bearings are completely different from any Ringhoffer car SEK / OSE had, but instead they are quite simillar with the German ones.

--> At Kato Magnisia i had found a destroyed builder's plate (definately can't read the builder, but the year written is 194x, most probably 1944...

--> Finally .... there is also a German number plate saying ''Halle 41586''.

In my opinion there is no doubt, that the wagons are ex- German, left in Greece during the war. What i don't know, and i 'm just guessing, is that maybe they were rebuilt by KEP in 195x based on the design of any Italian coaches.




P.S.: Christo, the photos you uploaded are from the archive of Fr. Elliott.

[Andreas]

Hm,

"Halle 41586" could be a KPEV 3 axle compartment coach. This could also explain the V on the chassis. There were some rebuilds of that kind in in Germany in which they eliminated the center axle. It is called "sprengwerk". I will look and post the question to a german forum. They will probably be able to help me.

Cheers
Andreas

[GAZKGK]

So, about the excursion cars..., which are a very mysterious case (DO NOT READ, in case you don't want to leave a bit dizzy from the forum... )

We are sure that in 1930-something 52 freight cars were converted to excursion cars, numbers Θτ 801-820, 821-850, 851 (Bar) and 861, and it's a fact that 100% sure they were converted from RINGHOFFER ''Ζτ''s ... Proofs ??

a) a SEK list, written around 1945 has the number matchings from Ζτ to Θτ, according to which, ALL of the "Θτ"s were Ζτ (no Ητ mentioned).

b) Some photos exist showing the ''Θτ'' which are 100% simillar with the Original "Ζτ"s and NOT with the "Ητ"s. (the convertion is some opened windows, a fance instead of the classic door, and fences at the car's edge to allow the passengers to pass from one car to another).

c) Some drawings .... such as that :

which show a Ζτ and not an Ητ.

The following is just my theory:

SEK converted the Ητ livestock carrying wagons 8601-8612 (Athens Region) and 8613-8650 (Salonica Region) made by Ringhoffer in Czechoslovakia in 1926/7 into excursion carriages, sometime before WWII. These Ητ wagons were the only ones with 6.5m distance between the axles in the Greek stock list of the time. Also they had a characteristic V strengthening support on the underframe. The leaf springs were obviously replaced to passenger type instead of goods wagon type.

Also, Christo ... unfortunately we can not agree with your theory because :

a) What you say is that ALL of the "Ητ"s were converted to excursion cars... BUT it is known that we have other cars converted from "Ητ"s as well ... for example Ζτ and Φτ and also some "Ητ"s were scrapped without being converted (many years ago).

b) in the ~1945 freight car list ALL OF THE "Ητ"s ARE REFERRED TO AS ACTIVE.






On the other hand AFTER the W.W. II we surely had some more convertions...!




Θπτ 961-963 converted by MCi - 43 (Thanks to Andreas for the type info) German wagons which were left in Greece (λάφυρα) ... such as that :

(photo 1990 by M. Kougioumtzoglou - Θπτ 962 at Amalia)


Some more cars converted from ΚΟΝΤΡΑ ΠΛΑΚΕ vans (plywood vans by U.N.R.R.A., American built 1942-1944 by A.C.C., G.A.T.C. and P.-S.C.M. CO.) with numbers further than Θπ 851 and also around 913-925 many of which ended up like that:

... which is ex- Θπ 925.


Finally after W.W. II some more ex- "Ζτ"s are mentioned continuing the numbers further than 861.




My personal theory, is that during W.W. II some of the ex- "Ζτ"s were destroyed and / or lost ("αφαιρεθέντα") and as soon as they needed those cars (otherwise they wouldn't convert any of the above [RINGs, Plywoods and ex- German]) they replaced the destroyed "Ζτ"s with new convertions from "Ητ"s which were not used due to the 25 Italian H2 livestock wagons built by O.M.S.S.A. in 1951 (if the convertion of the Hs was after then), taking their numbers (Θπτ 801-850).

It's true that what has remained as Θ in our days, they are all ex- "Ητ"s like that one at Edessa which was posted above...

... which is initially Ηπτ 8613 (if my theory is true, it has replaced Ζτ 7226), later as Θπτ 818 and since 1974 when it was given to the Track Maintenance sector of Thessaloniki as 30 73 100 7 229-2.







Finally again, some of the after- W.W. II converted "Ζτ"s and a very small number of the pre W.W. II ones came back (around 1970) to its original form as Z1 / Ζτ with an UIC number and were mixed with our known series ... as 20 73 107 7 8... and 9... (the last wagons of the series), of course having changed a bit due to their multiple convertions...

Example :

Initially Ζτ 7054, later Θτ 894 and finally as Z1 20 73 107 7 895-7 at Lianokladi ...

Note :

a) the new door without the characteristic "X" (as we said their original doors had been replaced by a fence while they were "Θ"s)

b) the handbrake at the braking hut which was changed to a round and vertical one.

[christo]

Jason,

Thank you for all your contributions. I am really grateful. Let us therefore get a little further in discovering the history of these conversions.

Firstly, it is clear that there were more than one conversion.

Secondly, when I speak of Excursion carriages I refer to the Θπτσ not the Θτ which I know nothing about. The Θπτσ had a central corridor and WC next to the central door. Additionally the Θπτσ had a distance between axles of 6.5 m and there were no Z (or other SEK type) wagons available at that time whith such an axle distance.

christo.

[GAZKGK]

Oops, i correct myself .... what i 've written as after - W.W. II Ringhoffers ... are finally pre- W.W. II too, as i checked on some older lists.

[BarbaPanagos]

thanks Jason, obviously there is a lot of research behind all this!!!


...

[GAZKGK]

OK, here are a few ex- Ητ ones ...

[BarbaPanagos]

from the Ελληνικό Λογοτεχνικό και Ιστορικό Αρχείο - Hellenic Literary and Historical Archive http://www.elia.org.gr/default.fds?langid=2

ΑΝΑΨΥΚΤΗΡΙΟΝ - BAR Θτ 851 or Θκτ 851 according to Jason

and another one

the captions are: Athens Mayor Kostas Kotzias on excursion train to Thessaloniki, 1935

...