Steam locomotives SEK Δβ61 - Δβ70 ex-PDS ex-PLM 1858/80

[christo]

Photo from the book Trains in Northern Greece (Greek language). This is the only photo I found of this type working in Greece. For those friends who read Greek, please note that the caption that says that the loco is a Bulgarian one, is a mistake.The leading wagon looks like an old SAP wagon but we haven't even begun to talk about such antiquities

christo.

[jsimantov]

Hi everyone,

This locomotive is a typical Bourbonnais type, of which thousands were built during the 2nd half of the 19th century for most of the french railway companies. Although these locomotives appear in the 1921 inventory as Δβ61-70, they probably never worked south of Thessaloniki and did not survive the batch of the so-known 'Pangalos' locomotives (Kβ); they were probably gone before the end of the '20s. Originally they were part of the CO roster (probably brought by the French Army corps for the Thessaloniki campaign "Campagne de Salonique'); I have posted a question on a french forum for any additional information, which, when it comes, I will share with the forum).

Number 65 is probably the old CO running no; one or two of the people shown are wearing Bulgarian uniforms, so this pic may have been taken during the Bulgarian Occupation of Eastern Macedonia and Thrace (the period known as the 'Second Bulgaria') in the second half of the 1910's.

Joseph

[christo]

Number 65 is

are you deducing this from the photo?

christo.

[Andreas]

Hi to all,

I will try to add something to the case Bourbonnais. Probably the initial number was 351-358. In the 1933 stock list there are 3 Waggons that are characterised as "Tenders" and have the numbers 351,354 and 355 but no locomotives either with that number or with Δβ 61-70. This corresponds to the source "Steam Locomotives in Greece" that states that around 1934 the ex-PLM locomotives were withdrawn from service and scrapped or sold.

I aquired 1,5 years ago the book of John Davies from Australia "Chemin de fer PLM and constituents: Locomotive list 1829-1938" and must take a closer look but I located some running numbers that are listed coming to Greece along with ther running number during PLM times.

What puzzles me is A.E.Durrant in „The Steam Locomotives of Eastern Europe“ that mentions: „... after the wars, eight old PLM 0-6-0s, probably left behind by the military, became Nos. 351 – 358.“ Und zu den Reihen Delta beta, delta und epsilon: „0-6-0, no doubt including the old PLM locos, some GWR 2301-class ex-ROD, and one other class believed to be outside-framed locos, ex-CO (Andreas comment: I would say the Hanomang Cn2 outside frame steam locos of the CO from around 1872), which had been transferred to the Salonica – Monastir line.“

This could mean that some Bourbonnais actually made it to carry SEK numbering but probably for a very short time.

Cheers
Andreas

[Andreas]

So...I made a list of the Bourbonnais that were sold to SEK. It is interesting that all locomotives were not sold in one batch but some in 1918 some in 1919...those in 1918 not all the same month......have fun...it is the first list published!

PLM Number after 1911 PLM Number/Name before 1911 Manufacturing Date Manufacturer Works Nr. SEK Data Comments
1514 L'EURE 3/1858 Societe Parent & Schaken, Oullins, Lyon 171 Sold 1919 ex- CIE CF du Bourbonnais, Locomotive had domeless boiler
1557 MILAN 5/1861 Andre Koechlin & Cie, Mulhouse 526 Sold 1919 Delivered to PLM Nord, Domeless boiler but could have been reboilered between 1875-1889
1884 - 1869 Societe Usine de Graffenstaden, Strassbourg 478 Sold 12/1918 Boiler with large dome on front ring
1929 - 1872 Societe Usine de Graffenstaden, Strassbourg 661 SEK 355
1944 - 1871 Andre Koechlin & Cie, Mulhouse 1326 Sold 1918, SEK 356 Boiler with large dome on front ring
1972 - 1870 Atelier du PLM, Oullins, Lyon 78 Sold 6/1918, SEK 357
2381 - 1880 Atelier du PLM, Oullins, Lyon 253 SEK 1918
2268 - 1874 Claparede & Cie, St. Denis, Paris 89 SEK 1918 Reboilering with serve tubes as of 1900 onwards
2402 1522 1880 Atelier du PLM, Oullins, Lyon 274 SEK 1919 Boiler with large dome on front ring
2424 1569 1881 Atelier du PLM, Oullins, Lyon 296 SEK 1918 Boiler with large dome on front ring

Sorry could not format the list better....

Cheers
Andreas

Source: Chemin de fer PLM and constituents, Dr. John Davies, 1996, Australia

[jsimantov]

Thanks Andrea for the update.

What remains a mystery though is the number... Any ideas??

Iossif

[christo]

Andreas,

I always dreamt of
a forum where people can freely give the gift of their knowledge and experience without expecting something in return
a forum which is not exclusive to a small band of self absorbed and highly secretive individuals
a forum that respects individuals whatever their gifts or limitations,

Your contribution makes me feel that maybe my dream was also other people's dream
and maybe it is beginning to become a reality. Our pages are freely accessed by our members and a load of guests.

Many thanks for this very excellent research work. Let us digest it and consider now how to model these wonderful locos.

christo.

[Andreas]

Hi Christo,

thank you for the kind words! I will try to give as much information as I have in the future...time permiting. I will give an update on the Bourbonnais because a old SEK was made public the past few days with the numbers of the PDS locomotives corresponding to the PLM numbers. As it seems though this list has some "flaws".

Cheers
Andreas

[Andreas]

I just came across this picture. It is definetely a Bourbonais loco "in Asia minor" (comment from the ERT Archive, found in a sister forum so I cannot verify it). What puzzles me is the loco number on the Bufferbeam: Δ 355 (the letter is obvious and the number I am 99% sure). So this is the first sure evidence (to my opinion) that the locos got PDS numbering to my opinion. What also comes into the table no is that probably some of the locos were send to Asia Minor during the war Campaign 1919-1922 and that is why they did not survive, or some of them, until the 30s. This would fit as the locos were sold to the PDS in 1918-1919.

If after the campaign only 3-4 remained, an in the 20s new locomotives where introduced (Kb class) the older and weaker classes could be scraped from service. The only thing that puzzles me in the picture is that in the 1933 stock list the "tender 355" is listed....but on the other hand the locomotive might have returned for major repairs (?) and then the campaign colapsed with shipping the loco back.

Δ355 maybe in Asia minor.

Cheers
Andreas

[christo]

Thanks Andreas .

what a photo

christo.